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Corrections to K S B Keats-Rohan's, "Domesday Descendants"
p.315 de Bellocampo Vicecomes, Willelm See DD amendment comments for p.725 de Sudeley, Radulf "He died in 1190 leaving by his wife Hawise Paynel of Dudley (Mon. Ang. V, 204) a son Roger V (d.1220)" Hawise Paynel could not have been wife of Roger IV de Berkeley because he was dead in 1196-7 when a Pipe Roll entry records Roger de Berkeley offered 60 marks to marry her. It is likely that Hawise Paynel married a Roger of another branch of the second house of Berkeley and which Roger died in 1230 as discussed in Smyth’s, ‘Lives of the Berkeleys’. CP, 12-1: 110, note (c); Maclean (1883), 1: 47 Tim Powys-Lybbe - 10 Jul 2003 "His daughters were Amice, wife of Hugh de Clinton…" Amice was wife of Henry de Clinton as correctly given on p. 403. Tim Powys-Lybbe - 09 Mar 2004 "He died c 1187, leaving … a daughter who married Waleran de Newburgh". Chronological considerations and grounds of consanguinity in a marriage of a later generation, do not allow for such a marriage to have existed. It is probable that it was his grand daughter Margery d’Oilly who married Waleran de Newburgh, not his daughter (see correction for p. 621). Chris Phillips - 15 Jan 2003; Rosie Bevan - 31 May 2003 http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Katharine Keats-Rohan "Father of Eva, wife of William de Chesney of Oxfordshire". Eva was married to Walter de Chesney, as given in the next entry, Eva de Broc, the entry for Walter de Chesney on p.369, and as given in the citation - Salter, Cartulary of Eynsham, vol 1, nos 78-80. Adrian Channing - 31 Mar 2003 "Daughter of Robert I de Brus, Wife of Ralph son of Ribald. Farrer, 'Early Yorkshire Charters' II, no. 650". This citation actually shows that Agatha was daughter of Robert II de Brus. Henry Sutliff III - 15 Sep 2002 Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, IV, p. 14, nos VI, VIII - should be vol V Chris Phillips - 01 Dec 2002 "Daughter of Ralph I de Chesney of Suffolk. Wife of Robert fitz Walter de Caen". Farrer [HKF, 3: 314, 316] quotes conflicting statements about Sibyl's parentage, from the chronicle of Sibton Abbey [citing Dugdale, 1817-30, 3: 636b; 5: 559b] and Dugdale's notes of the chartulary of Coxford [citing Bodleian Library, Dugdale MS 39, ff. 103, 103d]. Both these accounts make Sibyl the sister of John de Chesney and the daughter of a Ralph de Chesney, but the former identifies this Ralph with one who "came at the conquest", whereas the latter gives two Ralphs, father and son. In Farrer's chart pedigree (p. 314) he shows Sibyl as the granddaughter of the Domesday tenant Ralph. As there seems to be no doubt that there were two Ralphs, and that John de Chesney was the son of the younger one, this seems to be correct. HKF, 3: 314, 316 Chris Phillips - 16 Mar 2003 An internal inconsistency occurs here with Adelicia given as daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare and Adelisa of Chester, whereas under Ricardus II de Clare on p.398/399, she is not mentioned as one of his three daughters. Another daughter not mentioned is Lucy, wife of Earl Baldwin de Redvers, identified on p. 658 and p.245. Tim Powys-Lybbe - 09 Mar 2004 The following citation is incorrect "See Round, Geoffrey de Mandeville, App. E.". It should read "See Round, Geoffrey de Mandeville, App. K.". Tim Powys-Lybbe - 02 Apr 2003 "…wife of Richard II de Redvers, earl of Devon." Dionisia was wife of Richard I de Redvers, and Richard II de Redvers was her son, as given on p.659. Bearman (1994), App II, no. 15b "He married Alice or Adelicia, probably the daughter of Ranulf I of Chester and in 1136 widow of Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare…" The name is a mistake and should read Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare as given on p.398 Peter Stewart - 05 Feb 2004 "…he left a son Roland and a daughter Emma wife of Alan de Vitre". Emma was married to Robert de Vitre, and they were parents of Alan de Vitre. VCH (NTH), 3: 181 Cristopher Nash; Chris Phillips, Rosie Bevan - 16 Aug 2002 p.436 de Dol, Hadvisa filia Geldewini "Daughter of Gilduin of Dol (d.1137) and Noga of Tinteniac, wife of Robert fitz Wimund of Avranches." Hawise was wife of Robert fitz William fitz Wimund d’Avranches, as correctly given in the preceding entry. See also DD, p.263, de Abrincis, Robert, and DP, p.490, Willelm filius Wimundi. Gordon Kirkemo - 05 Aug 2003 p.441 de Dunstanvilla, Rainald "His widow outlived him by many years, but the accepted date of 1114 and/or the significance of her grant of Pottern to Tewkesbury abbey for his soul (Mon. Ang, ii. 66l RRAN ii, 1069) have to be rejected. The evidence does not support a second Rainald and is clear that Rainald de Dunstanville was alive in 1121 when he attended Bishop John of Bath on 30 June (Bath Cartularies, 49) and in 1129." There is a problem with chronology under this scheme. The grandsons of the Rainald of 1129 seem to have been born around 1150. But Adelicia, the wife of the Reynold usually thought to have died before 1114 was the daughter of a Domesday tenant. There is a possibility that multiple generations have been compressed into one because of a lack of evidence in this early period. Chris Phillips - 27 Oct 2003 "Father also of Gunnor de Essex, who occurs in a dispute with the Valognes family over property of Binham (Mon. Ang. iii, 348)". Gunnor de Essex was the daughter of Henry de Essex by Cecilia de Valognes (see p.449/450). There was no dispute with the Valognes family. Instead Agnes de Valognes had settled land on Gunnora, her granddaughter, in Cambridgeshire to provide for her following the confiscation of de Essex family estates. Part of this gift, land in Westley, originally belonging to Ely, was transferred to Binham priory, which issued a confirmation charter of Agnes’ grant. PRO E 40/3699; VCH (NFK), 2: 343; VCH (CAM), 6: 177 Rosie Bevan - 18 Apr 2003 "given the manor of Bromley in Surrey by Henry II early in his reign". He was given the manor of Bramley. VCH (SRY), 3: 4-5, 53, 84 Chris Phillips - 28 Jun 2002 "… died in 1139, leaving by his wife Havise his son and successor Robert II, and several daughters, including ... Leticia, whose grant of a mill at Passenham to Richard Balzan was confirmed by her nephew Robert II de Ferrers ..." Leticia is implied to be both sister and niece of Robert II Ferrers. Robert III is probably meant to have confirmed the grant. Chris Phillips - 2 Apr 2003 "Younger son of Walter de Gand, brother of Gilbert II, earl of Lincoln. Married first Adelicia Paynel and secondly Gunnor, sister and coheir of Ralph II de Albini Brito, by whom he had issue Gilbert (son of Gunnor, earl of Lincoln by usurpation 1216, d. 1241), Stephen and Avice, wife of Robert de Beverley, mother of Maurice de Gand". Confusion which may arise from this statement because Avice was daughter of Adelicia Paynel, not Gunnor, and was her sole daughter and heir. EYC, 6: 34 Henry Sutliff III - 21 Sep 2002 This Robert, husband of Avice de Gant, is known as: (a) Robert fitz Robert (fitz Harding). His father Robert fitz Harding was the first of his line to get the Berkeley estates. (b) Robert, Lord of Were, from Smyth's Lives of the Berkeleys. (c) Robert de Ghent, after marrying Avice and according to Sanders, Baronies, p.14. Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding received an enormous number of properties including Beverstone such that Smyth says "this Robert lyved in great reputation litle inferior to his elder brother the lord Maurice, and was attended with knights and other servants, of eminent familyes and estimation." He was given the town and castle of Malmesbury by Henry the second. This Robert fitz Robert's marriages get confused by Smyth who thought he married but once to Hawise de Gurney and they had two children, Maurice de Gant and Eve de Gurnay. Smyth tried to account for Eve's name by saying she married a Gurnay. The correct account is in Sanders p.14, note (6) where Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding m. (1) Hawise de Gurney and (2) Avice de Ghent /Gant / Gand. Maurice de Gand, son of Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding, married first Maud d'Oilly, and secondly Margaret Marshall, widow of Ralph de Somery, and d.s.p. in 1230. Perhaps the entry could be revised to something like: "... he had issue ... Avice, second wife of Robert fitz Robert Fitz Harding, known also as Robert lord of Were and as Robert de Gand, and mother by Robert of Maurice de Gand, d.s.p. 1230 ..." CP, 12-1: 111 Tim Powys-Lybbe - 03 Mar 2004 This account gives the names of children of Walter and Matilda, his wife, but omits Agnes de Gand who has her own entry on: p.470 de Gand, Agnes "Daughter of Walter de Gant and Matilda of Richmond, wife of William II de Moyon." Eldon Olson - 28 Oct 2004 "Wife of Herbert fitz Herbert the Chamberlain" Technically this should be Herbert fitz Herbert fitz Herbert the Chamberlain.
Tim Powys-Lybbe - 03 Mar 2004 p.480 de Gloecestria, Margaret filia Milonis "She controlled her father’s inheritance until her death on 6 April 1197…" The reference, which given in the last line as Mon. Ang. vi, 34 should read Mon. Ang. vi 134, actually says that Margaret died on 6 April 1187 – "Margeria supradicta supervixit dominum suum Humfredum et postea moriebatur sexto die Aprilis anno domini MCLXXXVII". Chris Phillips - 20 May 2005 http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Katharine Keats-Rohan p.493 de Gurnai, Hadvisa; p.303 de Ballon, Roger; p.401 de Clera, Roger "Wife of Roger, son of Hamelin de Ballon". "Son of Winebald de Ballon of Caerleon and Elizabeth. By his wife Hawise de Gurnay he had issue three sons Roger, Hamelin and Arnold". There is a discrepancy over whose son Roger was. Sanders p.68 indicates that Roger was son of Winebald, but if Roger did father three sons by Hawise de Gournay they must have died without issue, for by 1166 Winebald's daughter Mabilia was his eventual heir, and Eve was the heir of Hawise de Gournay. Hawise donated the advowson of Inglescome, Somerset to Bermondsey priory for the soul of her husband Roger who may be identified as Roger de Clere who died without issue in 1183/4. After his death she made an agreement with Lewes priory (as Hawisam de Gurneio) by which she gave to the monks her land in Atlingworth which she received in dower from Roger de Clere to hold of her for £8 p.a. to be paid at her manor of Englishcombe, Somerset. It is apparent from a curia regis roll of 1220, that this Hawise who donated the advowson was also the wife of Robert f. Robert f. Harding, (third son of Robert f. Harding, Lord of Berkeley), alias Robert de Ghent. Their daughter Eve confirmed the gift to Bermondsey, and was married to Anselm de Gurnay and Roger de Peauton (Pelton). Eve's son by Anselm, Robert de Gournay, was heir to his half uncle Maurice (1184-1230), son of Robert f. Robert f. Harding of Beverstone, Gloucs., by Alice de Ghent, as documented in Sanders p. 14. In 1220 Robert de Gournay was still underage. CRR, 9: 28; Sanders (1960); Mayr-Harting (1964) Rosie Bevan - 31 Mar 2003; Edward Beaumont - 17 Jun 2004 p.493 de Gurnai, Milesent uxor Hugonis "Second wife of Hugh II de Gournay". Undoubtedly Hugh III whose entry above says he married Milisent is meant here. Eldon Olson - 26 Oct 2004 p.495 de Haia, Muriel Uxor Robert "Wife of Ralph de la Haie" As the name heading suggests, Muriel was wife of Robert, not Ralph, de la Haie. Gordon Kirkemo - 05 Aug 2003 "Daughter of Roland de Harcourt… Wife of William II Trussebut". "…he left…a daughter Albreda (b.c.1120), wife of William II Trussebut". Two different fathers given for Albreda. Cristopher Nash - 01 Jun 2002 "…bishop Robert of Exeter notified Robert fitz Roy of Okehampton that Osbern de Hiduna and his brother Geoffrey had granted land on becoming canons of Taunton, and this with the assent of Osbern’s son and heir Richard (EEA x, 44)". There appears to be a transcription error for it was Othelin who became a canon at Taunton with his brother Geoffrey, around 1135, when his son and heir, Richard, succeeded to his estates, not Osbern. See DP, p.320. John Ravilious - 8 Jun 2003 "Robert d.s.p. in 1193, when his heir was cousin Albreda, sister of Ilbert II, wife of Richard fitz Eustache (d.1163)". There appears to be some confusion between Robert’s aunt and cousin. It was Albreda’s mother of the same name who was Ilbert II’s sister. See p.536. Chris Phillips - 24 May 2003 "His principal heir seems to have been Emma de Langetot, probably his daughter - she was niece of Matilda sister of 'Ranulf' de Langetot - an error for Ralph - according to a Thetford charter of her daughter Muriel (BL Lansdowne 229, fol. 145v)." It appears from a charter of a gift of land in Lenborough to Reading abbey, dated between 1130 and 1153, by Ralph de Langetot, that Emma was Ralph's sister. In it, Ralph refers to his father Ralph, his mother Cecilia, and witnesses include his sister Emma, and Alice de Chesney. Chronologically this Emma is the right age to be the same Emma de Langetot, widow of Geoffrey Fitz William and mother of Muriel and Cecilia, as listed in the 1185 Rotuli de Dominabus, in which she stated to be aged about 60, and therefore born about 1125. However it would appear that there were three Ralphs in succession and the Ralph giving the gift of land to Reading was Ralph III. Kemp (1986-87), 31, no. 261 Rosie Bevan - 28 Mar 2003 "Daughter and coheiress of Robert fitz William (fl. 1086), sister of Richard Mailard…" This statement conflicts with the entry in DP under Robert fitz Hugh on p.385 which says that Letitia was one of his daughters. The evidence that Letitia was daughter of Robert fitz William, is implied by the fact that she was sister of Richard Mailart, son of Robert fitz William and this comes from G. Barraclough, 'The Charters of Anglo-Norman Earls of Chester, c.1071-1237' (Record Society of Lancashire and Cheshire, vol. 126, 1988), nos. 13 and 28. Robert fitz William does not appear in DP as a tenant of earl Hugh or otherwise. Todd Farmerie - 11 Dec 2003 p.566 de Mandeville, Gaufrid II; p.330 de Boclande, Hugo II "... he was killed in 1144, when his heir was Geoffrey III by his wife Rohais de Vere. Father also of William, eventual successor of his elder brother Geoffrey, and of Robert, and a daughter Matilda, wife first of Peter of Ludgershall and secondly of Hugh II of Buckland (d.1175)." It is unlikely that Matilda was daughter of Geoffrey de Mandeville. If she were Geoffrey's daughter, this would imply two marriages between second cousins in the following generation. The relationship as stated seems to arise from a misunderstanding of the chart of the Earls of Essex given in Complete Peerage v. V facing p.116/7. Tim Powys-Lybbe, Chris Phillips, Todd Farmerie - 12 Jun 2002 p.566 de Mandeville, Geoffrey II http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Katharine Keats-Rohan http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Katharine Keats-Rohan p.568 de Mandeville comes, Willelm http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Katharine Keats-Rohan "In the following year Beatrice de Say, wife of Geoffrey fitz Peter of Ludgershall, daughter of William de Say and Beatrice, daughter of William I de Mandeville, was recognized as heir of the Mandeville earls of Essex" This is a correction to Prof. Keats-Rohan’s correction to this entry. Beatrice de Say was granddaughter of William de Say and Beatrice de Mandeville, being daughter of their son William de Say II as outlined on p.681. Todd Farmerie - 09 Jan 2004 "Married Isabel de Meulan,,.widow of Maurice II de Craon...” “He died c 1170. His wife married secondly Maurice de Craon." Since Geoffrey died in 1169/70, and she married Maurice de Craon who died in 1196, it is clear that Maurice was her second husband. ES, 3, table 719, 13, table 133 Mardi Carter - 01 Apr 2003 |
