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Corrections to K S B Keats-Rohan's, "Domesday Descendants"
"Died 1148/49…" There is a slight discrepancy with the following entry for his son Hugh II de Mortemer, which says Hugh I died in 1148/50. Eldon Olson - 28 Oct 2004 "He married Nesta, known as Agnes, daughter of Osbern fitz Richard and Nesta, daughter of Gruffydd ap Llewelyn, prince of North Wales (k.1067)." Gruffydd ap Llewelyn was killed in 1063 as correctly stated on p. 846. Bevan Shortridge - 22 Apr 2004 "Twice married, to Sibil and to Matilda Cantilupe, he left issue a son Henry (d.s.p. 1232) and two daughters Margery and Margaret. Margery, wife of Henry de Newburgh, earl of Warwick (d.1229), inherited the whole of the d'Oilly barony of Hook Norton in 1232 (Sanders, 54)." There are several errors in this entry, possibly brought about by adopting Sanders' rendition of the family. First there were only two Henry d'Oillys - the second died in 1232. This is proven by a number of contemporary records, but especially a pedigree extracted from a 1225 curia regis roll. Secondly Henry's second wife was called Matilda and after his death she went on to marry William Cantilupe. She appears to have been a sister or half sister of Maud fitzGeoffrey. Sibil was the mother of Henry II d’Oyly’s daughter and heir, Matilda, who married Maurice de Gaunt. Matilda died without issue in 1219. Margery and Margaret (possibly named Joan) were Henry II d'Oilly's sisters, not daughters, (by Henry I d'Oilly and Maud de Bohun) and it is most likely that it was Margery d'Oilly who was married to Waleran de Newburgh, earl of Warwick not Margery Bohun as traditionally ascribed. Henry II d'Oilly's heir in 1232 was Thomas, earl of Warwick, Margery's grandson, not Margery herself. The other sister was wife of Simon fitz Walter of Daventry, the son of Walter fitz Robert who was Maud de Bohun's second husband.
Wrottesley (1834); CRR, 9: 334-335; Clark (editor, 1907), pp.45 & 94; CIPM, 1: no. 558; Illingworth (editor, 1812-18), 1: 102; Bayley (1845), p.11 Rosie Bevan - 31 May 2003 "He married Emma, daughter of Gilbert I de Gand (d.c.1095), by whom he left issue his son William II (d.1175/75 (sic)) and Walter." This entry does not include his other son, Henry de Percy, identified on p.630. Alan also left illegitimate sons – Alan and Geoffrey who witnessed their brothers’ charters. EYC, 11: 3 Gordon Kirkemo - 11 Dec 2003 "Wife of Guy de Ridale and then of Simon de Gerardmoulin" Joan is identified as sister of Thomas Basset, presumably the same as the sheriff of Oxfordshire, in a charter by Malcolm IV, king of Scotland in which he gave the vill of Piddington, Oxfordshire, to St Frideswide, Oxford. Joan was married first to Guy de Ryhale (also known as Guy fitz Payn and Guy de Cahaines) who gave permission to Ralph the hermit to found a chapel and build a hermitage in Muswell (part of the fee of Piddington), which was later granted to the abbey of Missenden, Bucks. By Guy she had a son and heir, Thomas (DD 661, 662). She married secondly Simon de Gerardmoulin who confirmed the grant around 1152/3. There is some suggestion that she married thirdly Alberic de Dammartin, from the 15th-century MS copy of a surrender made ca. 1160 of all rights claimed at Piddington by Missenden abbey to St Frideswide's under the gift of Alberic, count of Dammartin & his wife Joan. However the documents of the earlier gift refer to 'Albrici Comitis de Damartyn & Iohane de Pidingtona, que fuit sponsa Guidonis de Riala', which may not necessarily mean the two individuals were married, but gave their interests separately. Barrow (1960), p.250; Wigram (1895), p.96; Jenkins (1962), p.67 Peter Stewart, Rosie Bevan - 03 Oct 2004 "Son of Saher I de Quency and Matilda de Senlis. Married first Orabilis, daughter of Ness of Mar and secondly Hawise, countess of Lincoln, daughter of Hugh II, earl of Chester, by whom he had issue Saher III de Quincy, earl of Winchester (d.1219), Joan, wife of Humphrey de Bohun and Margaret, countess of Lincoln, wife first of John de Lacy, secondly of Walter Marshal and thirdly of Richard of Wiltshire. ... He died in 1217." This appears to amalgamate details relating to three separate Robert de Quencys. (1) Robert de Quency*, the younger son of Saher de Quency and Matilda, married (i) Orable daughter of Nes and (ii) Eve. By Orable he had issue Saher de Quency, 1st earl of Winchester (d.1219), and died before Michaelmas 1197. [CP, 12-2: 747, 748] (2) Earl Saher's eldest son Robert married Hawise, countess of Lincoln, by whom he had issue Margaret, countess of Lincoln. He died 1217 [CP, 7: 676; in the CP account of Winchester this is erroneously "corrected" to make Hawise's husband a younger brother, not a son, of Earl Saher. For most recent corrections on this family see http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol12pt2.shtml#winchester] (3) A younger son of Earl Saher, also named Robert, married Helen, daughter of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, was the father by her of Joan, wife of Humphrey de Bohun, and died 1257. [CP, 12-2: 751, note e; CP, 6: 463] A useful account of the Quency family is given in Roth (1984). Chris Phillips - 25 Apr 2002; Peter Stewart - 06 Nov 2002 p.658 de Redvers comes, Baldwin "He left a widow Lucy, daughter of Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare (k.1138)…". Richard de Clare was killed in 1136 as correctly entered on p.399 under de Clare, Ricardus II. Cristopher Nash - 17 Mar 2003 p.659 de Redvers Comes, Ricardus II "He died without issue in 1193, when his heir was his cousin William de Vernon." William de Vernon was Richard's uncle, not his cousin, as correctly shown on p.768. Bearman (1994), p.110 Chris Phillips - 11 Feb 2004 "Son of Henry de Ria, whom he had succeeded by the end of 1162. He died c.1170, leaving a son Hubert III, who came of age c.1174, and died in 1188, leaving two minor daughters, Isabel, who married respectively c.1199, Geoffrey Chester (d.1206) and Roger de Cressy (d.1246)." The other daughter and coheir to the barony of Hockering has inadvertently been missed out. Isabel died without issue in 1263 when her heir was her sister Aline, wife of John Marshal (d.1235). Aline died in 1257 and her heir was her grandson John Marshall II. Sanders (1960), p. 53 Rosie Bevan - 22 Nov 2003 p.671 de Ros, Peter and de Ros, Robert The first entry says that Peter's wife was Adeline, youngest sister and coheir of Walter Espec, and the next entry says that she was daughter of Walter Espec. She was actually the sister of Walter Espec as correctly stated on p.840 under Espec, Adelina. Henry Sutliff III - 19 Aug 2002 p.674 de Rumelio, Cecilia; p.1039 Meschin, William Both entries record that their daughters Alice and Avice were their eventual heirs. It has been established that there was a third daughter called Maud, wife first of Philip de Belmeis, of Tong, Salop, and secondly of Hugh de Mortimer, of Wigmore, co. Hereford. In Domesday Descendants, Maud is stated to be wife of Hugh de Mortimer as "Matilda, daughter and coheiress of William le Meschin of Skipton" (p. 601) and Philip de Belmeis as "Matilda, daughter of William le Meschin of Bayeux" (p. 317). Chris Phillips, Henry Sutliff III, Rosie Bevan - 28 Jan 2003 Dugdale's Monasticon "IV, p.76, no IV", is cited which should be "V, p.76, no IV". Chris Phillips - 08 Jul 2002 Dugdale, Monasticon IV, p.76, no IV, should read vol V Chris Phillips - 08 Jul 2002 Discrepancy in the date of death of William I de Say, between his entry and the entry of his son below. i.e. c.1155 and c1144. Chris Phillips - 10 Feb 2003 p.691 de Sancto Johanne, Willelm "He was first married to Olive, daughter of Stephen of Richmond and widow of Henry de Fougeres, and secondly to Godehild Paynel, mother of his heir Robert." Here two, separate William St Johns, great uncle and great nephew, have been conflated into one individual. William de St John the elder is covered in CP XI p.344. He was married first to Olive, daughter of Count Stephen of Brittany and died around 1189 without issue, leaving a widow, Godeheut, who appears to have married afterwards Geoffrey Peverel. William de St John the younger is covered in CP XI p.321/322. He died in 1239 leaving a son and heir, Robert, and a widow Godeheut, who married Richard de Lucy. It is very likely that the two Godeheuts were closely related.
Gordon Kirkemo, Paul Reed, Linda Jack, et al - Aug 2003 "He married Isabel of Gressenhall, Norfolk daughter of Roger dapifer of the earls Warenne, by whom he had issue William". Isabel's father was named William fitz Roger or William de Gressenhall. This is stated in DD, p.488 under de Gressinghale, Willelm. Blomefield (1805-10), 9: 511; HKF, 3: 396, also discusses the family John Ravilious, Chris Phillips - 03 Jul 2002 p.725 de Sudeley, Radulf; p.315 de Bellocampo Vicecomes, Willelm On the information given by Emma Mason and elsewhere, it looked as though William de Beauchamp's son William might not have been married until as late as the 1190s. The identification of the elder William's wife as Bertha, daughter of William de Braose, certainly seems to be incorrect - she should be the wife of the younger William. On that mistaken basis, Emma Mason dated the elder William's marriage to about 1140. But this was apparently dated on a date of "160 years earlier" in an inquisition of 1305, which is clearly wrong and refers to a different William. CIM, 1: 534 Chris Philips - 21 Mar 2003 There is a typographical error in the reference given at the end of the biography, "(Seayes, Derbyshire, ch. N.17 and 3)". For Seayes read Jeayes. Rosie Bevan - 02 Feb 2004 Had issue including "…Lucy, wife of Richard de Vernon". The husband of Lucy was William de Vernon as correctly reported on p.768. Richard de Vernon was their son. Round (1913), p.12 Eldon Olson - 28 Oct 2004 "He married Constance, daughter of Roscelin de Beaumont of Le Mans, a grand-daughter of Henry I." Constance was the daughter of Richard I de Beaumont, vicomte of Maine, and the grand-daughter of Roscelin. She was the great grand-daughter of Henry I. CP, 12-1: 768, notes g & h; CP, 11, appendix D, p. 116 notes b, c, & e. Kevin Bradford - 13 Oct 2003 p.743 de Traci, Gracia; de Traci, Willelm There is a small discrepancy between entries on p.725 where John and Gracia's marriage is dated c.1130/35, whereas on p.743 under de Tracia, Gracia, it is said that in 1129 John accounted for a plea of his wife. Chris Phillips - 21 Mar 2003 "Married Rose Blund" This is chronologically impossible. This Robert who died in 1178 has been confused with his great-grandson Robert de Valeines who was married to Roese Blund. Her brother, William, died in 1264 and at his inquisition taken the same year Robert de Valoines, son of Roese, was stated to be 17 years of age. CIPM, 1: no. 585 Rosie Bevan - 20 Feb 2004 "At his death in 1184 his heir, by his wife Havise, was his daughter Gunnor, wife first (before 1185) of Durand de Ostilli (d.1194) and secondly (by 1199) of Robert fitz Walter of Little Dunmow (d.1235). Gunnor’s daughters by her first husband both died without issue.". Gunnor’s daughters were by her second husband Robert fitz Walter. CP, 5: 127 note (a), 132 note (c); CRR, 1233-1237, no.1432 Rosie Bevan - 10 Jun 2003 p.762 de Ver, Alberic II; p.1027 Maminot, Walchelin CP, 9: 585 (Norfolk) and DD, pp. 175, 176 (Bigod Comes, Hugo) agree that Hugh Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (d. 1176/7) married firstly Juliana, daughter of Aubrey II de Vere [d. 1141], and following the annulment of this marriage (or their divorce), Gundred, daughter of Roger, Earl of Warwick. Both Juliana and Gundred survived him. In addition, the two sources agree that Juliana also married Walchelin Maminot. Where they disagree is as to the order of her marriages. DD, pp. 762, 1027 says that Juliana married firstly Walchelin and secondly Hugh, and dates Walchelin's death to c. 1145/57. That would imply that she married Hugh Bigod in about 1145 at the earliest. CP, 9: 585 says that she married Walchelin secondly, and that he was dead by 1182, citing a gift by her for the souls of her father and mother and of her husbands Hugh Bigoth and Walkelin Maminot (in that order), dated between 1147 and 1182. One detail in the CP account suggests it is right in marrying her first to Hugh, then to Walchelin. Part of the evidence for the identity of Gundred, Hugh's second wife, is that five churches, including that of Holy Cross, Bungay, were part of her maritagium, that Bungay was later held by the Earls of Norfolk of the Earls of Warwick, and that it had earlier been received by the Earl of Warwick in exchange from the Earl of Leicester [CP, 9: 585, note e (continuation on p.586)]. Earlier, CP says [9: 581] that after Hugh's rebellion in 1140, the king marched against him and took Bungay Castle. If Bungay Castle was also part of Gundred's maritagium, that would place Hugh's marriage to her in or before 1140. Clearly, his marriage to Juliana must have been even earlier, and before the date given by Keats-Rohan for Walchelin's death. So she could not have married Hugh as Walchelin's widow. This chronology seems reasonable, as Juliana's son Roger Bigod was active by 1163/4, when he attended the Council of Clarendon [CP, 9: 586, 587]. On the other hand, CP [9: 579] places Hugh Bigod's birth at perhaps c.1095 (and in any case he must have been born by 1107 when his father died). That would make a first marriage after about 1145 extremely late. Chris Phillips - 08 Dec 2002 "Daughter of William II de Warenne. She married first Roger earl of Warwick (1119-53), by whom she had issue two sons and two daughters". It appears that she had a third son Henry who is mentioned in a charter with his brother William. CP, 12-2: 362, note (d) Henry Sutliff III - 24 Mar 2003 p.777 de Warenne, Gundreda The heirs of Gundreda de Warenne d.1224 are stated to be her daughters Joan de Neville and Margery de Breaute. These were in fact her granddaughters being the daughters of Gundreda's daughter, Alice de Curcy, by William III de Curcy of Stogursey. Alice was married first to Henry de Cornhill, d.1193, by whom she had Joan, married to Hugh de Nevill, the Forester d.1234. Alice was married secondly to Warin fitz Gerold d.1216, by whom she had Margaret, married first to Baldwin de Redvers d.v.p.1216, and secondly to Faukes de Breate. Rosie Bevan - 28 Jan 2003 "Son of Robert of Wells...His successor by 1211 was Gervaise de Welles." The Honor of Haganet, situated at Haughley in Suffolk, was created by William I and given to Hugh II de Montfort for services during the Conquest, in particular for the capture of Dover Castle. Before Henry of Essex, who held the Constableship for a time until 1163, it was in the hands of Robertus fitz Bernard de Vere who had married Adeliza de Montfort. She was the sister of Robert II de Montfort who held the English de Montfort lands. Some of these lands were granted to the Monks of Horton Priory, near Ashford Kent. A charter, issued by Robertus de Vere, dated circa AD 1140-44, was witnessed by Roberto de Well and Willelmo filio Normanni, Ricardo de Well filio Roberti et Willelmo fratre. At some time after the death of Adeliza 1142 - 52 Henry of Essex assumed the Constableship. Ricardo de Welle attested one of his charters. We know that by 1195 a Robert de Welles was appearing before the Curia Regis in connection with a claim for land he had inherited and that his father was Gervaise de Welles. The complainants in the suit alleged that the land, which their family had owned since the Conquest was taken by Henry of Essex and given to Gervaise de Welles. At the same time (1194) the pipe roll for that year contained an entry for the tallagium de Honoris de Haganet in which Robertus de Welles et Willelmus de Essetford debent scutagio militem eius dem honoris. Set requirendi sunt in Kent. The Red Book of the Exchequer (p.613) contained a list of the wardens of Dover Castle for 1211-12, including Essetford, Welles and Gervaise de Welles. One other, Hudo de Chandos, had been alive in 1140, which demonstrated that not all those listed were contemporaries. There is every reason, therefore, to conclude that Gervaise de Welles likewise was alive earlier, between 1152 and 1163, though which Robert he preceded (if they were not the same person, as between the one who witnessed the de Ver charter, and the one who appeared before the King`s court), is uncertain. The Dictionnaire Topographique du Departement de Seine-Maritime (1982), p.1057 contains an entry for Veules-les-Roses (com.can. Saint-Valery-en-Caux) making reference to 'Gerv. de Welles 1166-1172/73', giving the earlier period during which Gervaise was alive, and providing the Norman origin of his name. Scott (1876); Douglas (1944); Palgrave (1928), 5: 102; Hall (1896), pp.613-614 Peter Wells - Feb 2004 "Daughter of Gruffudd ap Llywelyn...and Angharad" References usually give Angharad as Gruffudd's mother, and his wife as Ealdgyth, daughter of Aelfgar of Mercia. Lloyd (1911), 2: p.367 n.31, chart p.767; Davies (1993), p.83, chart 101; Williams (1995), p.52 chart, p.53 n.33 Bevan Shortridge - 22 Apr 2004 http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Katharine Keats-Rohan p.861 Filius Alani, Willelm II Dugdale's Monasticon "IV, p.76, no IV", is cited which should be "V, p.76, no IV". Chris Phillips - 08 Jul 2002 "Steward of Henry II. He and his wife Juliana gave the church of Denton to Merton priory. Juliana was daughter and heiress of Robert Doisnel. They had no issue". William married secondly Eustacia de Courteney, and died around 1199. Eustacia’s second husband was Luke fitz John, and after her death around 1230 her heir was John de Courtenay. EYC, 3: 300 Rosie Bevan - 28 Jul 2005 http://users.ox.ac.uk/~prosop/domesday-descendants-corrigenda.pdf Katharine Keats-Rohan p.885 Filius Eustachii, Ricardus "He died in 1157". CP, 12-2: 274 and notes say that it was Eustace who died in 1157, and his son Richard FitzEustace had already died during his father’s lifetime. Chris Phillips - 29 Apr 2003 |
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